Episode 108: We Talk Conspiracy Theories With Special Guest, Mike Papale

Listen to this Episode of "Coffee with Gringos" here or on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play and Stitcher.

Paige: You are listening to “Coffee with Gringos.” I’m Paige Sutherland.

Ian: And I'm Ian Kennedy.

Paige: And today, we have a very, very special guest on the show—Mike Papale. He's one of my good friends from college, where went in the US. And we are going to talk about conspiracy theories. So, quite an interesting topic we have for today's show. Again, if you get lost, check out that audio guide and transcript online. So, Mike Papale—first time that you are on CWG. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Michael: Alright. Hi everyone, I'm Michael. As Paige said, she and I went to college together just outside of Boston. I currently live in Boston now and work for a medical software company doing customer support for them and I'm a big fan of Coffee with Gringos. So, I’m very excited to be an honored guest today. So very, very excited to be here.

Paige: Awesome. So, today's topic—conspiracy theories. Tell us what is a conspiracy theory for people who don't know.

Michael: Yes, exactly. So, for anyone who doesn't know, a conspiracy theory is something that rejects a standard explanation for an event and instead gives credit to a covert group or an organization that might have a secret mission. So, some of them can be a little bit outlandish and then some of them are a little bit more believable. In the last few years, I have been really into reading about random conspiracy theories, mostly to do with pop culture. But you know some of them have to do with history, as well. I was at a wedding for a few of my friends and one of my other friends and I were at the cocktail hour just kind of randomly discussing a few pop stars that were playing in the background by the DJ, and we both started talking about a few of the conspiracy theories surrounded by the songs that we were listening to. And then from there, my friend and I just started sending conspiracy theories back and forth to each other.

Ian: That's really great, Michael. I have a question because some of the conspiracy theories that people probably have heard of before are some pretty well-known ones. So, for example, that the moon landing was fake, that John F. Kennedy's assassination was actually a conspiracy, and recently, the Jeffrey Epstein suicide. So, they come in and out of our news all the time. And, like you said, some of them seem pretty outlandish—pretty crazy—and others seem like they could actually be very true. So, you have a wide spectrum and it's a really common topic to have amongst friends with drinks or just talking about what could be.

Michael: Yeah, okay so a common one that is popular here in the United States is we have a store called Mattress Firm, which sells mattresses, for anyone who doesn't know. And mattresses are the only item that they sell. They're not a full furniture store so you would go to Mattress Firm and only buy the mattress and maybe the bed frame that you use, but you can't go and get your whole bedroom set there. And a lot of locations where there's one Mattress Firm, there are typically other Mattress Firm stores very close. For example, I live in Boston and there's one in my neighborhood in Boston, and then just about a mile and a half down the road, there's another Mattress Firm, as well. And then if you zoom out of the Mattress Firm locations, you can see that there are quite a few Mattress Firm stores all in a very close radius to each other. So, a lot of people are wondering why you need so many mattress stores within five miles from each other because it's not something that, you know, like a coffee that you're going down the street and you grab a cup of coffee on your way to work and then you walk a mile to work and then you leave work and you maybe get a snack or something for the drive home. You really only buy a mattress once every eight to ten years and you think that if you're only buying something eight to ten years, you can drive the extra mile down the road to that one location. So, there are some theories that Mattress Firm is a money laundering front for different organizations, whether it's the mafia, or other organizations like that where, you know, they do have some actual mattress stock but other times, they're just passing money from location to location inside the mattresses.

Paige: I mean, you said there's, like, two in your area. Have you ever seen anyone walk in and buy a mattress?

Michael: So, that is a great question and no. That's a common comment on these articles, that it's like every time you walk by a Mattress Firm in Boston or New York City or Chicago, that there's always just two Mattress Firm employees and there's never any customers in the store. So, people are always wondering how can Mattress Firm keep all of these stores open when every time you walk by one there's never anyone in the store. We know retail shops have to pay a lot in rent, especially in New York or Boston or Chicago, so they have all of these stores in a close proximity to each other but they're not selling mattresses frequently, raises a few eyebrows as to how they're remaining open.

Paige: It's true. There are actually two by me too, and I feel like I should do like a sting and just sit out there for a day and watch who comes in. And I do want to have a disclaimer that for this episode, we don't support these conspiracy theories, we're just talking about them because they're really interesting. I will say, Papale, for your passion of conspiracy theories, is it just pure interest or do you actually believe any of them?

Michael: I don't think any of the ones today that we're going to talk about I really believe. And I think it's more just fun to read the articles online and all the comments that people have because they do get pretty passionate one way or the other if they believe them. And then it's a fun little party topic if there's a conversation that's starting to hit a snag. You can just say, you know, did you guys know that Mattress Firm isn't a real store and it's a money laundering front? And that that gets the conversation going again.

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Ian: So, Michael, what are some other interesting conspiracy theories that you know?

Michael: Alright, so another popular one that has gotten a lot of traction on the internet is that the Denver Airport is actually the headquarters for all things evil or the headquarters for a ton of secret societies. So, for anyone listening, Denver is the capital of Colorado which is a state in the United States. So, some of the reasonings behind that is that the Denver Airport, when it was built, it was extremely over budget by, I think, several million dollars. And so, people were wondering how this airport could be built so over budget without any other organization questioning where the money came from. So, people say that the Illuminati, which is a secret organization, fronted the money for the building of the airport. So, in that way they could use the underground tunnels and fortresses that they built. The airport could be a cover for all of their secret locations. And so, then another reasoning behind that is the footprint of the airport is that people say about the size of Manhattan, which is quite large. But the airport itself and the actual runways and air control towers only take up a small percentage of the actual footprint. So, people think that underneath the airport there are secret tunnels and layers and all of these secret places where people can, organizations can, hold meetings to try and plot their take over the world.

Paige: Interesting. I wonder, why Denver?

Michael: Yeah, that I never really was able to find but then there are also other theories about the airport where there's a lot of paintings that depict, hints towards the apocalypse. So, there's a lot of just not very positive artworks where people are like falling to their demise or just things that are pointing to the end of the world. So, in addition to that and the dreary artwork that has raised some suspicions that someone is underground at the Denver Airport trying to take over the world.

Ian: And that's the kind of artwork you want to see right before you get on a plane, right? You want to see that falling and all the scariest things you can imagine. Oh perfect, I'm really at ease now to get on this flight.

Michael: Yeah.

Paige: Have you guys been to the Denver Airport, either of you?

Michael: I have not.

Ian: I have, yes.

Paige: Did you notice any of the artwork?

Ian: No, I didn't notice anything. I don't think I even knew about this conspiracy theory when I was out there for it. I only found out about it afterwards.

Paige: I have been to the Denver Airport a few times but I also don't really take in the scenery at an airport. I'm more focused on my flight and making it and getting through security that I don't think I'm very observant of the scenery. But now when I go, I'm going to be like, are there any secret doors in here…?

Michael: Yeah, and some people also say that there are passages to nowhere in the airport. So, if you're running late for a connecting flight and you're trying to run to the airport, you can run down a hallway that then leads nowhere. So, people are wondering why that was ever built and why they're accessible. Or the exit signs point to each other, rather than pointing in the same direction, so people have trouble leaving the airport. Yeah, there's a lot of questionable things on the internet about the Denver Airport. Yeah, who knows maybe some disgruntled traveler was stuck in Denver for like three days and then just created all of these theories about the airport because the traveler was stuck there and couldn't get home for Christmas.  

Paige: Is that disgruntled passenger named Michael Papale?

Michael: For this one I can confidently say I'm not behind any of these.

Paige: Maybe you should do future airports. Why is it only Denver? I think we should spread the love around.

Ian: Yeah, I think we have a new show. We have a new TV show. We’ve got “Airport Conspiracies with Michael Papale.”

Paige: Airports and maybe malls. I feel like malls is a good target.

Michael: Yeah, malls are a good one. There's got to be a few conspiracy theories that can be created about the Mall of America. No one needs to go on a roller coaster while they're buying “back to school” jeans.

Paige: I guess shifting gears a little, the ones you mentioned are popular but a little off the beaten path. Now, I think let's shift a little to celebrities. So, I know, Michael, you have looked into a lot of different celebrities. Tell us a little about that.

Paige: Yeah, so one of them, now I would consider him a celebrity—Barack Obama—who was a former president of the United States. There's conspiracy theory that he can control the weather, which if anyone can control the weather, why not the President of the United States? People would say, I think this was probably his political opponents, that he had a few natural disasters during his presidency. One of them was Hurricane Sandy which was leading up to the 2012 election. So, people said that he created Hurricane Sandy in order to prove that he was a strong leader and then he could unite the country again in order to help his campaign. Which I don't think any president of the United States would create such a disaster in order to further their campaign.

 Paige: But how would one do that?

Michael: Yeah, apparently there's signals that you can send in radio towers that cause the wind to circle up, maybe like a cyclone. The science of these reasonings is beyond me and I'm not sure.

Ian: I think we need to consult a meteorologist on that one.

Michael: Yeah. So, yeah, there's one that Barack Obama can control the weather, that Avril Lavine, ,who is a pop-punk singer from the early 2000s that has had a few hits in the 2010s, but there's a common theory that she's actually dead and that the woman that we see now on TV or music festivals is a body double. Which that one is pretty interesting and a lot of people online have bought into. I don't know if either of you know the details on that.

Paige: I think it'd be interesting what her reaction is like.

Ian: “Hey guys, I'm fine—I’m right here.”

Paige: Sorry. Still kicking.

Michael: So, kick in. Yeah, yeah. So, before things that after she quote-unquote died, when she started appearing on red carpet, she was wearing more dresses and skirts rather than shorts and pants. And that, for lack of a better word, the bone structure of her face changed a little bit. So, people think that it's an entirely different person with a different wardrobe, and they think that this woman who is portraying Avril Lavine, her name is Melissa. And then at a red carpet, there was a tattoo on the woman's arm that said “Melissa” proving that that woman's name is actually Melissa and not Avril Lavine.

Paige: Who tattoos their name on their body like they're going to forget it?

Ian: “Hi, my name is uhhh, Melissa.”

Michael: Yeah, it was kind of nuts.

Ian: Poor girl probably just made some changes in her life and everyone said well, she must have died.

Paige: Like a celebrity changing their wardrobe and maybe getting facial reconstruction—crazy.  

Ian: Yeah, never happens.

Michael: Yeah, or you just gain or lose a little bit of weight, some people do that. It shows drastically in your face and people just assume that you're a new person.

Paige: Final one.

Michael: Yeah. Another popular one, which involves another American pop star is Katy Perry. So, Paige, I know you're a big Katy Perry fan.

Paige: I am.

Michael: There's one that Katy Perry is actually the adult version of JonBenet Ramsey, who for anyone who doesn't know this story, it’s pretty awful and very sad. But she was a young child in the US who was murdered in her home and her body was found in her parents’ home. Her murder was never solved and so people think that it was never solved because she's actually still alive and she is Katy Perry. The only reasoning people have behind this is that JonBenet Ramsey, when she died, I think she was about six, she kind of looks like someone that could grow up to be Katy Perry. So, if you do a side by side comparison of the two, there are similarities but I don't think that really proves anything. Other people think because JonBenet Ramsey's murder case was never solved, this is something that Katy Perry has commented a lot on her career. I think, when she first became popular, people really went crazy with asking her about it so there are many accounts of her denying this conspiracy theory both on talk shows, radio shows, paper articles, people ask her what she thinks and she says that it's all a lie, that she's always been Katy Perry her whole life. Which I think probably makes sense.

Paige: Is her reaction that she is just like, “This is so bizarre. This is crazy. I don't want to waste my time on it.” Or what's her take on it?

Michael: I think she is just like there's no basis to this conspiracy theory. I have proof of my childhood that was not someone else's childhood, so why just because I look like I could be an adult version of this child doesn't mean that I am.

Paige: I think it’s kind of but she's also it's not like this child went missing. She died. So, they have her autopsy on her body, right? Like, public records.

Michael: Yeah, so that one it's pretty weird and a lot of people did buy into it for a while, which I think is also sad for the family.

Ian: And I've heard of that but can you imagine that's probably so bizarre for Katy Perry to get a question like that, just for a few similarities? You want to talk about your music and all these other things about your life and somebody wants to ask you, “Hey, are you really the celebrity child that was murdered?” What?

Paige: What if she was like “I am.”

Ian: Cat’s out of the bag.

Paige: People are committed to them.

Michael: It is true, yeah. Once people buy into a conspiracy theory, they are willing to take it the whole way, even if there is science or facts that prove them wrong. They're willing to look the other way and say that people can control the weather or what have you.

Paige: I think we could probably talk about these all day, but we probably shouldn't. Thanks, Michael, for joining us. I learned something new. I didn't know like half of these. I think I'm going to do some more research when I leave. I really want to get to the bottom of this Katy Perry thing.

Michael: Yeah, you know it's a good hole in the internet that you can get into. And disclaimer, I did not create these and I don't back any of these.

Paige: We should, yeah. We should make some up about Coffee with Gringos. Well, listeners if you have any interesting conspiracy theories in Latin America and wherever you are, I'd be very interested to hear what other ones that are outside the US. But again, if you get lost, check out that audio transcript and guide. And again, thanks so much, Michael, for joining us.

Michael: Awesome, thanks so much for having me.

Ian: Thanks, Michael. We'll see you next time.

Paige: “Coffee with Gringos” was brought to you by Dynamic English, where you can learn English simply by using it. If you’re interested in taking classes or just want to learn more, go to our website at dynamicenglish.cl. Thanks for listening.

Key Vocabulary, Phrases & Slang:

 1.     covert (adjective): secret, undercover.  

a.     The covert mission was funded by the CIA.

2.     outlandish (adjective): ridiculous, bizarre.

a.     The man’s outlandish claims were unbelievable.

3.     spectrum: the range between two extreme or opposite points.

a.     Their wide spectrum of opinions increased the group’s diversity.

4.     to zoom out: expand the visual focus of something to see it from a greater distance.

a.     She zoomed out on the map to show where she lived.

5.     money laundering (noun): the hiding of illegal money by transferring to foreign banks or legitimate businesses.

a.     The group was sent to prison for money laundering.

6.     front: a legitimate business or organization used to money launder.  

a.     The group used a clothing store as a front for money laundering.

7.     proximity (noun): nearness in distance.

a.     The two planes are currently in close proximity and need to be careful.

8.     to raise a few eyebrows (idiom): to cause surprise or suspicion.

a.     The activities of the employees raised a few eyebrows inside the store.

9.     sting (noun): carefully planned operation to observe something.

a.     They set up a sting outside the store to look for money laundering activity.

10.  disclaimer (noun): statement or warning that denies responsibility.

a.     Just a disclaimer, we don’t support these conspiracy theories.

11.  to hit a snag (idiom): to become boring or have a problem.

a.     I always talk about the Katy Perry conspiracy whenever a conversation hits a snag.

12.  traction (noun): progression or movement of something; to become popular; to get attention.

a.     Some of these ideas are getting traction with the public.

13.  headquarters (noun): the main administrative center of an organization.

a.     The group’s headquarters are located in Texas.

14.  over budget (adjective): costing more than planned or budgeted for.

a.     The building is so over budget. How could they pay for this?

15.  Illuminati (noun): group or several groups, both real and fictitious that originated in Enlightenment-era society to secretly control the world.

a.     Many people claim that the Illuminati built their headquarters under the Denver airport.

16.  to front (verb): to loan money to someone before a contract or operation.

a.     The group fronts money to the organizations for their services.

17.  footprint (noun): the area occupied by something.

a.     The footprint of the airport spreads for two miles.

18.  to plot (verb): to secretly make plans to do something illegal or harmful.

a.     They began to plot their plan to take over the world.

19.  to depict (verb): to show or represent in art.

a.     They depicted people falling in all of the paintings.

20.  demise (noun): ending or death.

a.     The man fell to his demise during the fight.  

21.  dreary (adjective): dull; lifeless; depressing.

a.     The dreary look on their faces made the people nervous.  

22.  to take in (phrasal verb): to notice and observe something.

a.     I like to take in the views of a city when I visit.

23.  disgruntled (adjective): angry or dissatisfied.

a.     The disgruntled employee yelled at everyone and quit his job.

24.  to shift gears (idiom): to change a subject or thought.

a.     Shifting gears, I’d like to talk to you about something else.

25.  off the beaten path (idiom): not known or popular with many people.

a.     Some of these conspiracy theories are off the beaten path…

26.  meteorologist (noun): a weather scientist; someone who forecasts the weather.

a.     The meteorologist said it was unlikely that Barack Obama could control the weather.

27.  body double (noun): a person used to look exactly like someone else, usually for movies.

a.     People claim that she actually has a body double and isn’t even alive.

28.  to buy into (phrasal verb): to believe something.

a.     She buys into every conspiracy theory she is told.

29.  kicking (adjective): alive.

a.     Is he dead? Nope, he’s still kicking!  

30.  quote-unquote (phrase): used in speech to express that something being said could possibly be false.

a.     They say that Jeffrey Epstein quote-unquote, “killed himself.”

31.  to portray (verb): to show or depict something or someone.

a.     The author portrayed the criminal as a hero.  

32.  autopsy (noun): post-death examination to discover the death of a person.

a.     The autopsy showed that her death was a murder.

33.  cat’s out of the bag (idiom): to reveal a secret.

a.     The group was lying about the sources of the money. Cat’s out of the bag!

34.  to back (something) (verb): to support or agree.

a.     We don’t back any of the conspiracy theories presented.