Episode 109: Ethical Dilemmas

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Paige: You are listening to "Coffee with Gringos." I'm Paige Sutherland.

Ian: And I'm Ian Kennedy.

Paige: And so, today in spirit of my philosophy major in college, we're going to talk about ethical quandaries. So, these are ethical dilemmas that are not that easy to answer. There are always consequences and it's a matter of where your conscience lies and there's no right or wrong answer— it's just how strongly you feel either way. And so, some of these questions are going to be pretty difficult. Okay, so again if you get lost, check out that audio guide and transcript online. Okay, Ian. First question, pretty hard here. Again, no right or wrong answer. We won't judge you.

Ian: Alright. I'm ready.

Paige: Okay, so for this scenario, you're driving to work, listening to music, maybe having a coffee, and all of a sudden, someone comes into the road, and you hit them and you kill them, but another car also comes and hits you. You both get out of the car, the other woman who's driving the car thinks that she hit that person and killed them and starts apologizing, crying—"I can't believe I hit that person.” Do you say anything? Do you correct her or do you just be silent?

Ian: That's a good one. It's a tough one. All the ones we talk about today are going to be tough. This is a good one to start out with. So, yeah, I mean, this one's a typical one, right? Do you take the fall for what you really did and presumably go to jail or do you let this woman who's hysterical, who believes that she's caused the problem—the accident, the death—do you let her take that guilt, and then you are able to live your life as you want? I think as tempting as it is to say she believes that it was her that did it—tempting as it is to say just let her do it and think that and live your life as usual—I could never live with myself. I think that guilt would just completely drive me crazy. And I wouldn't be able to live a normal life or live a happy life knowing that I let this woman take the fall and go to jail for something that I actually did. In life, if you make a mistake, I think you have to own up to it, regardless of the consequences. So, yeah, it's tough but I think just for my own soul, I would have to admit to it.

Paige: I agree. I think maybe though in that situation, because a car crash is such a blur and kind of a very intense moment and this woman is really claiming that she did it,  I feel like I would probably answer more, I think I probably did it, instead of being like—"I did it, it was me. “Because it's like, why is this woman thinking that she hit the guy?

Ian: That's a really good point. It's maybe not so black and white. Like, it's not very noticeable exactly who's responsible, then maybe you're right. I think maybe you could take more of an approach of, look, I think it was me. It could have been me. Instead of putting your hand up and saying it was me for sure. So, that's a good nuance you've added to the situation that makes it even more difficult.

Paige: Yeah, well I just think, obviously, the fear of prison is terrifying. So, it's like you're in this intense moment where maybe you blacked out for a sec(ond), and you're like, why does she think she did it? I think I did it. So, you kind of question whose memory is better. So, I would be like, “I'm pretty sure I did it” so that no one's taking the fall for something I did and just let the facts show. In the end, would be probably my take.  

Ian: Yeah, the more you mention that the more I think of maybe some crime scene investigation would need to come into play to really determine who did what.

Paige: Okay, what's your question?

Ian: Yeah, so I got a good one for you, Paige. This one's a classic one, I think a lot of people have probably asked themselves, so here it is—so you're an eyewitness to a crime where a man has robbed a bank, but instead of keeping the money for himself, he donates the money to a poor orphanage, so that poor kids can have clothes and food and, take care of these kids. And so, obviously, you know that this guy committed the crime, so, if you go to the authorities with the information—the police—there's a good chance the money is going to go back to the bank and meaning that that money can't be used for those kids now. So, do you tell the authorities about the robbery, or do you let the money stay with the orphanage with the poor kids?

Paige: That's kind of a classic ethical dilemma. I think that, given this situation, I would not report him, because it is for a good cause. And you're robbing a bank, it's not like you're robbing a “mom and pop” shop. It's a bank that probably has insurance that has enough money as is, but I think what's difficult in that situation is that, does this open the door that everyone's just going to go robbing banks and doing whatever cause they want? So, I think in that scenario, I would not report him, but it is complicated as a general philosophy.

Ian: Exactly. It makes it a lot more difficult to say because of where the money's going, right? It would be one thing if the money was going to something selfish or to somebody who didn't need the money or someone who's just truly a criminal and wants that for themselves. But when you put it in a Robin Hood sense of stealing from the rich and giving to the poor—giving to these children who clearly really need the help—then yeah, becomes a little bit more difficult. So, it's not such a black and white answer in that sense. So, I think I probably would make the same choice, even though I don't think it's necessarily right. In this case, it's going to a good cause and it's going to people who really need it. And, like you mentioned, it's not good to steal from a bank but this is something that happens and they have policies in place to recover that money and that insurance so, I think in the end, I would let the money stay with the poor kids.

Paige: Okay, next one. So, this one is about landlords. So, you're moving out of your apartment and you severely damaged some of the kitchen appliances, but your landlord isn't going to notice the damage until after she gives you your security deposit back. Do you say anything or do you just try to get away with it?

Ian: This is a hard one. I've had a lot of landlords in my life too and most of them, I didn't like. So, part of me wants to say that I wouldn't say anything. I would take my security deposit and run because of the way I've been treated by some landlords. But I don't think this is fair to apply to all landlords, or obviously, my opinion is biased because of my experiences. So, I say I think if it was a landlord I didn't like, the answers obvious—you don't say anything. But, I think, if it's a landlord who I really like, who was always genuine with me, always good with me, I'd probably just own up to it because, again, it comes back to sort of the first question—the guilt. If it's a good person—a nice person—and then all of that is put on them when really it was my fault, then I'm not going to feel good about that. And so yeah, it might be expensive, I probably won't get my security deposit back, but I guess I can sleep at night knowing that I technically did the right thing in my mind. But if it's a landlord I don't like, then I'm out the door and not saying anything.

Paige: Yeah, I think a factor for me would be, how much are they overcharging me? Because a landlord always overcharges—that's how they make their profit—and I think there's a moral amount to overcharge and then just being stingy and taking advantage of you. And so, I've definitely had some landlords that have charged probably double, just because they could. If I’m living in a house, even if the guy's nice, and he's double charging me, I'm like, “You can afford to fix the appliances.”

Ian: Yeah, that's a good point too. That's a good point. They can probably afford it because they've added in that expense.

Paige: Okay, you got another one for me?

Ian: Yeah, okay here's one for you. Okay, so you have a job as a network administrator for a company, and they also employ your best friend's husband. And so, one day your best friend's husband sends you a message asking you to release an email, and this requires you to open the email, and when you open it, you find out that it's a conversation between the guy and a secret lover. So, after releasing that email, you find yourself in a difficult situation, or a pickle sometimes we say in the US. Your instinct is to tell your best friend about the infidelities, but if you talk about the contents of the company email, it's, obviously, against the company policy to release this information and you can be fired. So, once it becomes obvious that your best friend found out about their cheating husband through the company email, it's all going to lead back to you, if you leak it. So, do you tell your friend about what's going on with the secret lover, or do you stay quiet to save your job?  

Paige: Oh, that's tough. I mean, I think, my first approach would probably be to confront the husband and say, “I saw the email. You have to tell her. If you don't tell her, I will.” So, I think I would take that approach, and if he didn't tell her, I think I would risk my job because if it's my best friend and she's married and thinks and her life is different, I couldn't live with myself hanging out with them all the time and being with them. I would prefer being a good friend over my job. What would you do?

Ian: Yeah, I feel the same way. It's like, basically the question comes down to, do you value your job or your relationship with your friend more? And so, I would take the same approach as you. I would confront it head-on and say “Look, you need to tell them or I'm going to say something.” If they refuse, then, again, I think if it's my best friend, my best friend is more important to me than a job. So, I think I would have to tell my best friend, because like you said, there's no way I could live with myself if they stayed together if they got married, they had a family, and you never said anything. And so, basically, that whole existence or that whole relationship is built on a lie. And so, obviously, your job is very important, but I don't put a job over an important relationship in my own mind. So, it's tough, but again, you got to go with protecting your friend over protecting your job, I think.

Paige: I mean, you said earlier, I think that question, “Can I sleep at night with this decision?” is how I make a lot of these decisions. It would eat away at you if you didn't say anything.

Ian: Exactly. Yeah, it wouldn't be worth it.

Paige: No.

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Paige: Okay, next one for you. This one, I think, is something that different cultures would have different answers on and I think that with a lot of these ethical dilemmas, is it’s cultural, right? How you're raised, what religion you follow, kind of teaches your morals and ethics. And I think this question, it is a little culturally different. So, now that you're an adult, you're self-sufficient financially, you're out of the house—do you think you owe your parents anything?

Ian: That's a good one. Yeah, I think I definitely owe my parents a lot. You know, they brought me into the world, they raised me, they paid for my school, they've done so much for me and have been so great. So, it's a tough question, especially when you look at things that will happen in the future like if a family member gets sick, do you move on to take care of them? Basically, asking, would you sacrifice your own personal development or your own life to take care of them? And that's really tough but I think, ultimately, again it would come down to the sleeping at night or the soul part. And I think, for me, it's hard too because I live on the other side of the world from my parents and so, I actually have to think about this. If one of them got sick, would I move from Chile back to Missouri to take care of them? And I think, the question (answer) would have to be yes. Because, it's important to live your own life and do what you need to do—what you want to do—but ultimately, I wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for them. So, I think, ultimately, I would just have to go back and take care of them if that was the case. But I know it's not such an easy question. I know. Maybe, like you said, in different cultures, it's kind of different when you have a lot of family members living together in cultures, for example, like in Latin America. I would assume it's probably more of a common answer to say yes you feel in debt to your parents and to take care of them. But if you compare it to other cultures, maybe in Europe or North America, there's maybe more of a sense of more independence. So, maybe, you would consider different options. Maybe a different family member could do that job for you or, in the case of being sick or old, you could put them in a nice nursing home, if that's something they were okay with. So again, like you said before, we really have to caveat it with the cultural parts that come along with this question. So, for me personally, that's my answer but I don't think I could judge anybody based on their answer.

Paige: Are you the oldest of your siblings?

Ian: Yeah, I'm the oldest.

Paige: I feel like that is something that is always in play is that the oldest is kind of the one responsible of taking care of the parents when they get older. I don't agree with that—I think it should be a shared responsibility because you're both raised in the same home and given the same opportunities. I think that's a lot of burden for one person.

Ian: Yeah, I totally agree. You know, that's a good point. Even in my own family, my grandma is sick right now and so my mom and my aunts, all three of them, take turns together taking care of her. So, I think you make a good point. Are we going to all do this together or are we going to find a solution that works for everyone, including the parent? Because you don't want to put all that responsibility on just one child. It's not really fair. Alright, Paige. I'll ask you one last one for today. Okay, so this is another one that's a pretty classic question that gets asked. So, here's the scenario—you have a train track and a train is coming, and you have five people that are tied up together on the tracks. They can't move and the train is barreling towards them. Now, there's also one other person that you can push in front of these five people on the train tracks and this person will die because you push them, but they will stop the train from crushing and killing the five other people. And so the question is, do you allow the train to kill the five people who are already on the track and you aren't guilty of pushing the person who's alive on the tracks? Or do you push the person onto the tracks in order to save the five people?

Paige: It’s a doozy. I definitely agree with the philosophy of saving more lives is better, but the fact that I'd be pushing this person makes me a murderer, which is a lot of guilt to have. So, to be honest, I probably would do nothing. Even though I know saving five people is the right answer, I think actually pushing someone and staring in their eyes while I do it would just haunt me forever.

Ian: I never said you have to stare in their eyes!

Paige: But they're probably going to see it coming!

Ian: Right. Yeah, I know it's really tough and, like you said, you see both sides of it and so I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and say, I think that I would push the person. Oh my God, it sounds terrible to say, because you would feel like a murderer.

Paige: Yeah.

Ian: And of course, you'd feel terrible for that person who wasn't on the tracks—they never deserved that. And that's in order to save five other people, so it becomes a question of do you save more lives or do you not live with yourself as a murder? That's really hard. I think we might have saved the hardest one for last, even.

Paige: It is—it is really hard. I think one factor that would change my decision would be the ages of everyone. So, if there were two children who are part of the five group and the guy I'm pushing is like, sixty years old or a little older, I would probably feel more inclined to be like, the five people, especially the children, would outweigh it.

Ian: Exactly, yeah.

Paige: t's tough actually pushing someone. That throws a wrench into it.

Ian: And it's easy to say while we're here on Zoom just talking to each other but if I was in that situation, who knows. You'd have a split second to make that decision and then you'd have to live with the consequences forever. Oh, I don't know. These questions are really getting my brain going. They’re really making me think about my morals and my ethics as a person.

Paige: I know. Probably, a disclaimer to our listeners not to listen to this episode at night. You'll have some weird dreams.

Ian: Might have trouble sleeping after this one.

Paige: I mean, as we said from the beginning, there's no right or wrong answer. They're really just tough. And, unfortunately, one decision you make might sound bad but the other way is really difficult too.

Ian: Hopefully we never have to make these yeah decisions in real life.

Paige: True. So, remember listeners if you get lost, check out that audio guide and transcript. Thanks for listening.

Ian: We'll see you next time.

Paige: “Coffee with Gringos” was brought to you by Dynamic English, where you can learn English simply by using it. If you’re interested in taking classes or just want to learn more, go to our website at dynamicenglish.cl. Thanks for listening.

Key Vocabulary, Phrases & Slang:

 1.     to take the fall (idiom): to take responsibility or guilt for something.

a.     She takes the fall for every mistake that is made at work.

2.     presumably (adverb): likely; to be assumed.

a.     Presumably, he will go to prison for the crimes he committed.

3.     hysterical (adjective): extremely emotional.

a.     The woman became hysterical when she heard the bad news about her son. 

4.     to own up (to something) (phrasal verb): to take responsibility and admit to something.

a.     I think it’s important to own up to one’s actions in life.

5.     blur (noun): something that cannot be seen or heard clearly.

a.     The whole experience was a blur. I’m not sure what even happened.

6.     nuance (noun): a subtle difference or variation in meaning or expression.

a.     The ethical questions are more difficult when you add nuances to them.

7.     to blackout (phrasal verb): to lose consciousness.

a.     She can’t remember the accident because she blacked out immediately.

8.     eyewitness (noun): someone who observes something when it happens.

a.     The eyewitness to the crime observed the woman in the red car crash into the person.

9.     orphanage (noun): a place that cares for children without parents (orphans).

a.     The orphanage needed more money in order to help the poor children.

10.  “mom and pop” shop (noun): a small, locally owned business.

a.     I prefer to shop at “mom and pop” shops instead of big supermarkets.

11.  landlord (noun): a person who manages and rents a house, apartment, building, land, etc.

a.     The landlord told us that we needed to pay as soon as possible.

12.  security deposit (noun): money paid to the landlord when moving into a property to secure a property and to pay for damages.

a.     I hope the landlord returns our security deposit after we move out.

13.  biased (adjective): unfairly against someone or something due to experience.

a.     Her opinion is biased because of the bad experiences she had.

14.  stingy (adjective): unwilling to give or spend money; ungenerous

a.     I have had a lot of stingy landlords in the past who didn’t want to spend anything on necessary repairs.

15.  to leak (verb): to release or share sensitive information to the public.

a.     The company secrets were leaked to the press yesterday.

16.  head-on (adjective): directly.

a.     I decided to confront the problem head-on and not waste any time.

17.  to eat away at (something) (idiom): to cause someone to feel guilty for something they did.

a.     The guilt eats away at me if I don’t tell the truth.

18.  self-sufficient (adjective): to be able to care for oneself without the help of others.

a.     Being self-sufficient gives more independence and freedom to do what you wish.

19.  to caveat (verb): to warn; to take notice.

a.     It’s important to caveat the difficulty of these ethical questions.

20.  in play (adjective): possible to happen

a.     We need to consider the problem that is in play with our new project.

21.  to burden (verb): to bother or give a difficult responsibility to someone.

a.     The burden of long-term illness was difficult for the family.

22.  to barrel (verb): to drive or move so fast that it is almost out of control.

a.     The car came barreling down the road towards the people.

23.  doozy (noun, slang): something significantly important or difficult.

a.     The last election was a doozy, but I have a feeling that the next one will be too.

24.  to haunt (verb): to persistently be in the mind of someone.

a.     The crime I committed years ago still haunts me to this day.

25.  devil’s advocate (noun): a person who expresses a different opinion in order to cause a debate or argument.

a.     To be the devil’s advocate, I think that the death penalty is wrong.

26.  to throw a wrench into (something)(idiom): to damage or change something in a way that complicates or ruins it.

a.     The decision she made really threw a wrench into the project plans.